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Force Feedback question
The Force Feedback option kind of works - I have a MSFF stick but on landing the forces are very weak not really a thud as you touch down and overall they seem quite weak altogether. Was wondering if this is normal and I notice that there is not a lot in terms of setting the forces on landing etc - am I looking for too much here? I see that the main forces appear to be in the flight not at landing or runway takeoff, am I correct? Is this something that is likely to change - and I am not criticising just asking, overalll the app is great.
Dear Brian hi !
You are not asking too much, exactly the opposite.
At the moment the landing force is simulated at touchdown based on vertical speed. The jolt is calculated from :
- The "GND" slider that sets the maximum desired force that will be applied on the hardest landing.
- The value in the Max VS/Force text box that sets the vertical speed that will produce the above force.
Values in between will produce proportionally lesser forces/jolts.
On takeoff it is just the ground shake that stops and the airspeed affect.
If you have any suggestions please let us know.
The one thing that is on the TODO list is profiles for various planes.
The FF section is fairly low on the priority list but it's there.
Closing this post, everything is likely to change as this is still in beta. The people that pay for beta software should be able to form the way it is developed. This is our take on the subject anyway.
So please let us know what you would like. No promises or deadlines, but the will is there for most parts the ability 🙂
Thanks for the reply, I'm a bit occupied with something else at the moment but I will have a good think about this and come back to you with some ideas that may help. BTW I never expect promises or deadlines 🤣 all suggestions are just that 'suggestions'.
Here are some suggestions / feedback. (I also use another FF app which I used as a comparison when doing this evaluation).
So suggestions for development / add on / improvements
- Gear vibrations while taxiing and take off/landing possibly reflecting ground type ie grass / rough ground/ smooth tarmac
- User adjustable forces on landing (ie the touchdown 'thump')
- Vibrations and bump from extended/retracting gear or airbrakes
- In flight 'stiffness' of control at speeds
Instead of per aircraft setup I'd suggest having five or six profiles that are then applied generically to each aircraft. For example Profile 1 could be light aircraft, 2. Heavy single engine 3. Heavy twin, 4 Light Jet 5. Heavy aircraft 6. user defined.
So each aircraft you have would be allocated an appropriate profile and use those settings.
I have played with the current settings and found the following:-
1. With Maxvs/force set to 50 we get a good bump on landing
2. Changing Min/ max force to 2000 not much seems to change
3. changing sliders for vert /horz not much seems to change
4. no idea what Friction damper does but doesn't seem to do a lot
5. Nothing I did seems to improve groound bumping (taxiing vibrations)
So in summary the forces are there but somewhat weak on takeoff / landing run but the bump on landing is now OK. I suspect as you indicated this is a back burner being developed and it does provide some feel that is absent in a non FF stick. I also acknowledge that I do not know / understand some of the controls that you have in place so I just experimented.
As ever, no criticism is implied just feedback which I hope will help.
Dear Brian so many thanks for the suggestions / feedback.
What you say is perfectly understandable and more or less in the pipeline.
I want to grab this opportunity for a bit of verification / debugging ( and content for the coming FAQ)
Having a MS FF2 joystick you should have the following operational (I list even the ones you said are working for completeness) :
- In flight stick return force based on speed
- Stick shaker when stall warning is active
- Landing bump
- Ground taxing vibrations (primitive)
So here's a quick test procedure :
- Start with all the "Forces" sliders to 0
- Uncheck Stick Shaker and Set Force from Airspeed
- In FF "Options" tab, click "RECONNECT" to make sure the joystick is connected (FF should be shown on top right status indicator).
Verify that there is no force felt while moving the stick.
- Gradually Increase the "Damper" (or "Friction") slider all the way to the max while moving the stick.
- Also change from Damper to Friction the"Friction/(Damper) check box.
Verify that the stick is resisting your movement (depending on slider position) and the effect between the two methods*
- Set the DAMPER slider all the way to minimum - Joystick now moves free
- Set the VERT and HOR slider in the "Forces" group to the maximum - They should move together
Verify that the movement of the stick behaves like a spring loaded joystick. The maximum "spring" force is defined by the two sliders.
- Leave the VERT and HOR slider in the "Forces" group to the maximum.
- Set Min X Force to 5000 **
- Set MIN Y Force to 3000
- Check (activate) the "Set Force from Airspeed" checkbox.
Verify the the vertical force Is less than before but stronger than the horizontal force (X is elevators in FF, Y is ailerons)
* : Friction is a uniform resistance to stick movement regardless of the speed of the stick movement
Damper is resistance that increases with the speed of the movement. Like moving a big spoon in a jar of honey; slow easy, fast harder.
** : When the forces are set form the airspeed and the plane is let's say on the ground ( 0 speed ) then the re-centering force of the stick should be also 0. These two settings override this logic and will not let the force fall below the set value. So, having a minimum force set to 5000, even if the force due to airspeed should be 0, the system will keep it to 5000. Same logic is for both axis.
My preferable setting for small aircraft is like in the screenshots. I do not use stick shaker but this is up to personal preference.
If we manage to find the time for this update, we may include a couple of buttons with fixed (for now) profiles as you suggest.
Also, the ground surface linked to different vibrations is ready and waiting for the next optimization of the replay system. See this thread why not yet https://fsplayground.com/forum/postid/248/
FF has a lot of potential, we just did not know if people would be interested. Also it is one of the most difficult to implement 🙂
I know you have done most of these tests, I did read your posts 🙂 It is just a good opportunity to have a base for the final documentation, and for anybody else that reads this thread.
Thank you Brian, I do appreciate the feedback (I believe I am repeating myself here).